Who was the infamous pirate octopus?

Captain squid

JulieB:
Yet most liberal/leftist are not indifferent to those in pain, hence the reference to liberals’ wish that Federal government be the “nurturing parent”, helping those at the bottom of the socio-economic scale, those generally in need – welfare programs, health care, environmental issues that involve polluted or poisoned water/ground.

Rhod said:
Utilitarian thinking is a reflexive kind of logic that pays ideological tribute to the individual while ignoring them in reality. The Kelo decision in New London is utilitarian, unregulated abortion is utilitarian in the minds of many on the left, so is affirmative action and a huge portion of the leftist set of ideas. Leftist thinking is also deeply collectivist.

JulieB:
Actually, I believe that most left/liberals lean away from the good of the individual, looking to “common good” attitudes. The Kelo decision may be utilitarian but it completely supports capitalism (ruling class) and does not lean towards collectivism or communism (proletariat). If the Kelo decision had given the property to a collective, the profits of which went directly to the city for public endeavors, I could see that reasoning, but it was a strictly capitalist proposition, off of which the city hoped to gain taxes.
Abortion is not utilitarian, birth control is. Affirmative action? Well, because its intent was to affectively use ALL of the human resources available, it might be, but I think that’s a stretch. Affirmative action is clearly in the “Nurturing Parent” camp.

Rhod:
Most goals associated with leftist thinking require statist solutions, which is to say the application of coercive power to accomplish liberal goals. I regularly refer to Orwell on this matter, because as a socialist, he labored with the problem that all liberal thinking tends toward authoritarianism, and often to totalitarianism.

JulieB:
Have no idea what “statist” means here, unless you mean actions by the Federal government. “Application of coercive power to accomplish goals”. The left perhaps - coercing capitalists to pay taxes to help care for the lower socio-economic rabble? But in general I think both left & right do their own coercing.

Rhod said:
This is, to me, the central problem I have with most liberals/leftists. There is often a deep good heartedness, which is indignant to complaints, but more often, an abrasive authoritarinism disguised as social concern.

JulieB:
Offering welfare, job training, and health insurance is hardly authoritarian. Authoritarianism is generally the purview of the conservative. The “authoritarian father” deciding what is best.

Rhod said:
I have no patience with the masquerade, and as you know, can be vulgar and brutal in my attacks. I think it's deserved.

JulieB:
How very authoritarian of you. I, however, prefer discussion and an attempt to reach some kind of common ground.

In my opinion, vulgarity and brutality is never deserved in conversation with individuals one doesn’t even know. Civility is the least due, no matter what your politics. Try sarcasm and cynicism, they are civil and accomplish similar ends.

Rhod said:
I find that liberals/leftists (whichever you are) are more significant for what they leave out than what they say. Asking for elaboration never seems to work, but I'd like to ask you at least three questions. Feel free not to answer.

1) Abortion. As an aside, "abortion on demand" is not a mysterious expression, it's just been traded in for other euphemisms. You can ask any friendly NARAL, Planned Parenthood, or maybe even a Girl Scout leader what it means.

JulieB:
What I said was, “I don’t know anyone in the pro-choice movement who believes in “abortion on demand”. Really, I don’t.” I still don’t.

Rhod says:
But, what is the problem with the states deciding the issue? You hint that there are some problems, as well as claiming that abortion should be legal because it happens anyway. I've never understood that...but the final question is: What is the problem with community standards, and their expression in Federalism? Some states might not accept abortion. So what?

JulieB:
I don’t have a problem with the states deciding the issue. My thoughts were about those across state line problems. Women will still go where abortions are available if they are desperate. Abstention and birth control are still the best preventatives of abortion.

I have no problem with community standards. What is OK in Texas may not be agreeable to Californians.

Rhod says:
2) Small "u" utilitarianism. I didn't have Jeremy Bentham and Utilitarianism in mind. I said, essentially, that leftist thinking was contaminated by utilitarianism, not, as you said, that governments already engage in it. Unregulated capitalism is also utilitarian, and that's not government.

JulieB:
The only “utilitarianism” I know of is that suggested by Bentham, Mill, and others. “the doctrine that the actions of governments should be judged simply by the extent to which they promoted the “greatest happiness of the greatest number.”

Rhod said:
Do you see any utilitarianism in, say, affirmative action, or ideas about multiculturalism, or deconstructionism, or gay marriage, or even abortion? According to Stephen Levitt, years of abortion have resulted in a reduced crime rate. That's a utilitarian argument for abortion, isn't it?

JulieB
As defined, if I agreed with an exclusive policy of utilitarianism, then the items above would not occur. I am still unclear on the definition of the word with which you are trying to define this discussion. So I’ll just talk a moment about the items you list above.

Affirmative action: There are some parts of society who do not value the abilities of others who are different in some way, gender, skin color, age, etc. It reduces competition if only certain people are acceptable applicants. I don’t think that affirmative action creates social change. However, it does help some segments of society get training or experience where they might not have had an opportunity. Affirmative action was useful to open some doors, but then became less so from backlash. It was time to change it. We have women who are Police Chiefs because of affirmative action. However, in general, society’s biases will continue until it is unprofitable to do so. Nursing is an example. Originally nurses were always women. There was a bias against men – it was a “woman’s job”. Now that women have more opportunities themselves, there is more of an opportunity for men in nursing and it is much more acceptable for a man to be a nurse now. They got there because they were needed.

Multiculturalism: The United States is a melting pot of people from many different countries and cultures. My own ancestors (one of whom, Thomas Bloom, arrived on the second voyage of the Mayflower) came from England, France, Scotland, and Germany. I enjoy this and look for the family traditions that have come from all of those places, we seem to have picked up a little of everything. But when they first arrived they carried on the traditions of the countries from which they came. Gradually they borrowed recipes from each other, they inter-married and in the process married those of other religions. It is a process that only needs time and the friendliness of others.
My caveat: I think there is danger in allowing large masses of immigration from troubled countries. The trick is to allow time and space for assimilation and acculturation.

Deconstructionism – I don’t think in the analytical terms of deconstructionism beyond the occasional dinner table discussion. So for myself, I can’t really comment.

Rhod said:
3) Christianity. Why is Christianity pacifist?

JulieB:
That’s a reply that is pages in itself. I can write it up, but not now.

Rhod said:
Other questions, but if you have the time, I'd like to know more about what you believe.

JulieB:
These answers are what I believe. I am not saying they are the answers for “the Left” or answers for anyone else except myself. They are not immutable, they can change. Twenty years ago I thought that affirmative action would really change society. It didn’t. It did however change the opinions of some people. And those people helped change the opinions of others. I don’t think the law changed society, I think hard working and dedicated people changed society.

All are welcome to comment, please do so respectfully.

And this is a bit over the top -

Schwarzenegger spokeswoman Margita Thompson said the governor was "disappointed that the ruling has silenced the voices of 950,000 Californians. He hopes the proponents will appeal."

While I'm not sure that the single party system California seems to have is a good thing, I don't think this is the way to get the job done.

"Jalapeno, Jalapeno, Jalapeno, Jalapeno."
I've discovered a wonderful new philosophy that has raised my consciousness as well as my cholesterol. It's called Tex-Mexistentialism. It all started with the philosopher Juan-Paul Salsa, who wrote, "To Bean, or Nacho to Bean, that is the Queso." He was followed by his great disciple, Descarta Blanca, who said, "I Pinto, therefore, Cayenne." Some trace it to ancient Grease, where the great thinker Aristortilla wrote the book Plata's RePulpo. Meanwhile, over in ancient India, they believed in Chili con Karma - that what Casa round, Carne's around. And back in the Holy Land, The prophet Masa brought The Ten Comidas:

"Thou Salt not Tequila."
"Honor Tamale and thy Papaya."
"Blessed are the Migas, for they shall Ranchero the Burps."
"Give a man an Enchilada, he'll Taco Mole."
"Arroz is Arroz by Flameada name."
"In the Picante, Guisada Cerveza'd the Hongas and the Verde. And he saw that it was Food."

I'd like to close by reciting The Lard's Prayer:
"Our Fajita, who art in Huevos, Pollo'd be Muy Bueno. Thy Corona come, thy Chili be Con, on Cuervo it is El Jefe. Forgive us our Tres Amigos, as we forgive those who Seis Salsas against us. Lettuce not into Tomatillo, but Nuevo us from Fritos. For thine is the Gringo, the Agua and the Chorizo. In the name of the Flauta, and of the Flan, and of the Frijole ghost. A-Menudo."

Bush Chooses Appeals Judge John Roberts Jr. for Supreme Court
President Bush said tonight he will nominate U.S. Appeals Court Judge John G. Roberts Jr. to fill the Supreme Court seat being vacated by Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, a choice expected to bolster the court's conservative majority if accepted by the Senate.

Why did the Swiss rescue team fire their St. Bernard?
Because he figured out how to get the cork out of the keg.

Tired of Prying off stickers? Tattooed Fruit Is On the Way
A pear is just a pear, except when it is also a laser-coded information delivery system with advanced security clearance.

And that is what pears - not to mention organic apples, waxy cucumbers and delicate peaches - are becoming in some supermarkets around the country. A new technology being used by produce distributors employs lasers to tattoo fruits and vegetables with their names, identifying numbers, countries of origin and other information that helps speed distribution. The marks are burned onto the outer layer of the skin and are visible to discerning consumers and befuddled cashiers alike.